Net Zero at Least Cost for Cold Storage and Cold Chains
Good morning, everybody. Thank you for joining us to have a bit of a deep dive into Net zero. At least cost the cold storage and cold chain. Just wait a few moments for a few more people to jump in and I can see the disciplined numbers flicking up and up so I'll just wait for that to settle down before we kick off. Okay, It's Flicked over to 1101. So I might start some of the preliminaries and the the chit chat. So let me start by saying once again, thank you very much for joining us this morning. We're going to do a bit of a deep dive today into Net Zero at least cost this cold storage and cold chain. There are some big barriers and challenges out there for organizations in that sector looking to address their carbon footprints. We're going to focus today specifically on the energy aspect. Um, and largely look at what the energy market and supply choices Can mean for your net zero position. And although we will allude to some of the other challenges and opportunities that are out there for you guys allow me to introduce myself. My name is Edward Hanna, sliding the deck about who I am. Um, but so I won't take up. I don't want to talk about me too much, but I'll also be introducing my co Panelist, Tony john a kiss and the pleasure of seeing in the flesh yesterday in Sydney joining us today. However, from Melbourne. Okay. And I think we might jump in Tony capitalism. Okay, so we will start with the acknowledgement of country. Um, in the spirit of reconciliation, we acknowledge the traditional custodians of country through Australia and their connections to Lansing community. We pay our respect to elders past and present and extend, extend that respect, all aboriginal strait Islanders, people's today. I'm broadcasting to you from Parramatta, which is Darragh country in the west of Sydney and Tony, you're down in Melbourne, I mentioned. I am so I am from lively area, which is the warren jerry land. Cool. Thank you a little bit about us. Um, I'm gonna introduce Tony um, Tony joins us today. Tony has been in the energy sector for more than a decade. Working with commercial and industrial businesses of late, doing more and more work with industrials, um, and helping them on their net zero journey. Um, a feather in Tony's cap is that he led one of our marquee brand clients, I can't mention to you through the renewable energy purchasing cycle last year. It's a real pleasure to have Tony here to join us today because what we want to do is showing a bit of a light on renewable energy procurement. We think it's probably not as well understood um, in a cross industry as it could be. Hopefully we can provide a bit of guidance and light um, to describe to you how you can effectively make decisions to procure energy, renewable energy for you to go forward Myself, I've been in the industry for coming on 2.5 decades. A long time I watched the industry grow up since competition was introduced in the late 90s. I spent a good portion of the last decade worrying about microgrids and embedded networks, spending a lot of time with organizations moving their business partially off grid, building a bit of resilience by having on site generation and bringing in storage and evolving business models in that space. But it's yeah it's great to be back into the core of the energy markets talking to you today on the behalf of energy action a little bit about us. Our mission is to make energy cleaner easier and cost less. We've been doing this for many years under many different business models I suppose as different aspects of the energy value chain have opened up and it evolved Um where more than 20 years in the game and I've been here for 20 years. Um and you know we asx listed where I FSL accredited We work with perhaps 10% of the commercial business sector helping them manage their energy procurement and manage their energy. Okay look, just to just to frame our conversation today we will look at a little bit of what this means for Australia. Um Some remarks by the secretary general of the U. N. Um Antonio Gutierrez back in late february on releasing that iteration of the I. P. C. C. Report into the climate challenge. Mr Gutierrez was very equivocal, unequivocal. Sorry um in the importance of addressing the energy sector as consumers, as participants in the energy industry. Um It's the energy sector globally. Can see it here in Australia that is really at the source of the um the climate change challenge for us. And good trace here is imploring all of us to move faster, work harder, do more to make that transition to renewables to renewables. So that's what we will talk mostly about today. Okay, drilling down to cold storage. If we look at cold storage and sorry, the cold chain, it's it's it's pretty interesting. One of the key elements of of cold chain. Obviously there's the electricity as an input, there's cold store itself, there's there's trucking and then there's the path of the customer through commercial and retail applications in cold store and in the trucking space we can see a bunch of challenges that, I'm sure are you in our audience today have started to are addressing and thinking hard about we're not terribly well equipped to deal with all of them but just to give you a quick surf. Um it's apparent to us that there's a lack of regulation and standards in the design and maintenance of refrigerated cold store across the sector and that has Australia led to sub optimal energy efficiency outcomes. The main reference points for standards come from the US and the UK to this point, there's no Australian building code which relates specifically to cold storage. Although there are some, there's some great opportunities there to, to drive energy efficiency as the building code starts to tackle Energy efficiency in the sector, the sector is obviously electricity intensive, 85% of the cold storage facility will typically or more will be bound up wound up in its refrigeration cycle. Um, that's great from, you know, it solves the problem that a lot of industries are facing in terms of electrification. The electrification challenge has already happened for refrigeration obviously. Um, but it also points to where the challenges are for energy for the sector. When you can replace components and components as assets evolve. It really is the big gains in energy efficiency and refrigeration appear to come from at the facility level and its facility replacement. And as I mentioned, building codes for new facilities which will drive down the emissions intensity of the sector. We do a lot of work with clients who are managing their emissions reporting as well and we can see a bit of a knowledge gap perhaps in the energy efficiency sector, but more so in the emissions management sector, there is an amazing depth of literature, scientific literature out there about the global warming potentials of refrigerants. Um, it's, you know, the factors are very available that the science behind it is well understood. What we do see though when we work with organizations, particularly organizations fleet of refrigeration facilities, the tracking the refrigerants, um, leaks and tracking refrigerant refueling is not so straightforward. It's quite difficult. Um, certainly as a third party to reach into organizations and get hold of that data can be time consuming and awkward. I think there's opportunities there to, to close that gap between science and practice of emissions management trucking. And there's some great work done by the Australian Trucking Association a couple of months ago just highlighting some of the market barriers that exist in two for electric trucking here in Australia and indeed globally fundamentally. There's no cost parity yet. It's significantly more expensive to invest in an electric truck at this point in time. And there's some great suggestions made by the to, to improve policies to, to reduce that barrier over time and speed up the transition that trucking needs to make over future generations, future decades, last one will unpack today. Renewable energy purchasing is not well understood. This is a barrier. There's, there's a lot of 25-28 suppliers and there's probably more advisors, consultants and brokers out there. There's not a lot of consistency in energy offering. And I guess one concern that we have as a, as a member of the industry is that people don't necessarily understand the consequences of what they're buying and how they can use renewable energy to report reductions in their emissions. And so we'll drill into that. And then the last barrier asked plenty to unpack this for us today. Energy prices right here in Australia electricity prices up and down the East Coast perhaps less so, but up and down the East Coast are extremely high right now, we're really feeling the bite on the energy commodity challenge to europe as a result of the situation in the Ukraine and Russia actions there. Okay, as I mentioned that there's loads of opportunities. Neighbors has released cold storage, cold store benchmarking tool. Um it goes live this year. The industry therefore will be participating in a round of benchmarking and baselining neighbors is fantastic for that. It's great energy efficiency outcomes to other sectors. Um We have great partners that work in the neighbor's space and the energy efficiency space that we can connect you with if you are interested in understanding more about how neighbors works and neighbors can work to to establish benchmarks and baselines in sector Also, ira, the refrigeration and air conditioning group have released our best practice designed for cold stores, which goes right through the design process to commissioning. It's a pretty useful document if you are looking at your next refrigeration facility. And look, I've just been looking in the last couple of weeks modeling released by the federal government's done by a partner business of ours, Delta Q. Looking at the impact that future business building standards can have on energy efficiency. The gains are in the order of 10% over the next couple of years by improving the business envelope building envelope that's in addition to equipment improvements as well. Other opportunities. The electrification work is done. You know, we don't need to think too hard about electrification to electrify other heating appliances in this sector, which is great. Um, and as a result of that, as a result of our energy intensive refrigeration is addressing renewable energy. Addressing the challenge through renewable energy purchasing can significantly reduce the footprint of a refrigeration facility very rapidly. I have a short term and the long term and we're here to help you do that. And if you're interested and last point solar and storage installation in the high pricing environment, we're in solar is a bona fide cost reduction option for all cold stores. So ones with strong enough fruits and it's also obviously can reduce your carbon emissions. Again, we've got some great processes and partners in that space to help you if you're interested. Um, broadening back out very quickly to the Australian emissions economy, if you like. Energy is the big opportunity in our opinion anyway for emissions reductions across Australia Through the lens that we look at the opportunity, you can see here on the left side of the screen, more than 35% of Australia's energy emissions come directly from the electricity generation sector. And when you lay over transport and stationary energy over that and think about the electrification of those sectors as well. You can see that if we get the electricity sector right and we get that on a renewable footing, Then 50% of Australia's emissions will be captured and dealt with and mitigated in sorting out that sector alone. We think that's a fantastic opportunity we're really looking forward to, to being part of that over time. On the right hand side of the page, I've just pulled something back from, from cop 26 the media around the Glasgow meeting in october november last year, which was really about driving a sense of urgency across the globe into the, the challenge of global warming that it presents picked up stuff in the papers again this morning about weather patterns here in Australia recently and what they the token, what they hold in store for us. It's not great reading the key message is that if we're going to mitigate the impacts of global warming globally, then we need to do more faster. So again, it's our responsibility as energy consumers and its energy industry participants to really try and lead the way on that. Okay, how big is this challenge for the energy sector? It's, it's massive. It's massive three charts here, which just give us a bit of a look at what it means. One, the left hand side, that's a bit of an indication of the change in technology and the the amount of investment required and actually is out there to come into the sector Over the next 25 years? The middle graph is looking at, you know, if this change happens, which way is the most likely and what when is it really going to start having an impact on emissions from the electricity sector And then the third charge just gives us some relativity is here. That demonstrates one if we get the renewable energy system working what that means for Australia and some of the growth opportunities that exist for the nation if we're going to so drilling into that really will be fast. But the, what we can see, we know that there's a lot of coal generation moving out of the market that's all over the papers at the moment as we head to an election, the spate of that and also obviously the game's going on in the G. L. Shareholder discussions. Um there is a lot of generation needs to come out and is scheduled to come out of out of the market over the next decade, that will be replaced, it will be replaced by wind, solar and batteries and there's plenty of investment lining up to ensure that that happens. There are challenges, obviously, particularly around transmission resources in the market moving into the middle graph. Um this is a chart compiled by chemo working through with industry participants to understand where they see um the emissions trajectory of the electricity sector going over the next few years and you can see the step change this purple scenario, this is what people expect to happen and you can see emissions really starting to fall down over the course of this decade too. Um, manageable level. But that needs to be driven by government. It needs to be driven by consumers. It needs to be driven by the industry as well. That won't happen by itself. What will happen if the pressure comes off the industry is something that looks more like this, progressive change change will happen. It just won't be fast enough. And then on the far left, the dream of becoming hydrogen hydrogen superpower. If we can crack that and get renewable hydrogen down to a reasonable cost, then there is massive opportunities for the economy by the way, please feel free to jump in on chat and on the Q and A. If you've got questions where we're going and we'll do our best to answer those for you. Okay. And then look, the last graph I've got here is just again from fema, just demonstrating the opportunity that the energy sector will have to rise to this is under that hydrogen superpower scenario that the 470 500% increase in the actual size of the energy market. Okay, good news is that here in Australia and globally renewable power is demonstrating itself month after month, quarter after quarter to be cheaper than conventional fossil fuel power. We're in obviously a difficult and volatile transition phase at the moment, as I alluded to earlier, the cost of fossil fuel commodities has gone high globally And that has had an impact here locally. Um, and obviously a thermal load, fossil fuel load pulls out of the sector then uh maintenance and maintenance schedules and the continuous operation of the remaining stock becomes more and more important, particularly with batteries yet to really get to a commercial level. But just on screen I've got here some level is cost of energy charts out of the US back in 2019. But making the point that solar PV down to four cents a kilowatt hour at scale In 2019. It's certainly about that level at scale here in Australia at the moment. Wind onshore wind is the other dominant contributor here in Australia. Four cents in the U. S. It's slightly higher here in Australia. I understand. And that compares to the long run marginal costs of coal fired generation that we're used to seeing in new south Wales Queensland victoria over the last few decades. You know, we've always sort of modeled off about 4.5 cents particular one hour. It's a long run marginal cost. Often the industry's down below that. But right now it is not sure. Yeah. Other key point I'm going to throw to Tony very soon and ask him to tell us a bit more about what's happening in the market. The other key points I really wanted to make today is that in terms of net zero and the purchases that you make in regards to Net zero if you want to be making a reportable, um I guess contribution towards Net zero as an organization than to Resolve or mitigate your scope two emissions. So the emissions related to your electricity consumption, then it's really there's a real requirement to ensure that you have renewable energy certificates surrendered on your behalf, either directly into your account, into an account on your behalf. These renewable energy certificates are recognized by all of the major reporting frameworks that people are using globally to make credible and realistic claims towards Net zero. Um So that that fact that I mentioned renewable energy certificates are required under R. E. 100 renewable energy 100 standard. They're required under the UN's science based target program. They're required or they underpin the green power program here in Australia. Um They're an option under the Climate Active program. Um Climate active does also acknowledge emissions of carbon neutral electricity but they're also looking at producing or normality standards themselves. If you're reporting under fingers and looking at the search standard, then for your scope two emissions. Then we need to demonstrate purchase and surrender of certificates and under the neighbor's renewable energy indicator, which will be released later this year. Renewable energy certificates are required for that as well. Okay, so I'm gonna gonna throw the mic to Tony just make the point. So when you're thinking about buying renewable energy, it's the cost of energy plus the cost of certificates that you need to be able to uh factor into your budgeting and your decision making process in order to get hold of those certificates to report back into your um reporting frameworks. So Tony what I've got on screen here mate is the energy action price index. We're tracking commercial business, energy industry energy prices that were trading and on behalf of our customers each day we've come out of Covid and prices are going up, what's what's going on behind that Officers are going up become more important than ever for our clients and every business in Australia to make plans moving forward. What's happened over the last six ish months for 5 6 months? Um There's been multiple factors that have the pricing across the across Australia. You know this time last year we're seeing energy prices of sort of between 50 to $60 per megawatt hour on average across the country or across the name I should say now we are finding that there are multiple factors um what's happening in europe environmental factors. A. G. L. S announcement of the lawyer young um disruption entering station closures. Energy prices have have go on 30-50% higher across across the network. So we're seeing Pricing around about the 90 to $100 per meg per megawatt hour which you know that's a big increase for our clients. So we've been working closely with all of our clients to mitigate this issue and find a way to procure renewables to, to drive down the cost of energy. The bottom that's right. Um, and look, there's with nobody can, can I just predict with any accuracy what's going to happen in Ukraine and europe, even if we see the conflict situation dying down, I think europe has some hard choices to make in respect of its future energy supplies. And so I think we're in for a bumpy ride for gas pricing certainly, which is priced off the oil price indexes globally and also coal prices coal prices at the moment, there's a couple of things driving coal prices very high, which is impacting New south Wales and Queensland and particularly one is some of those contracts, A lot of those contracts in New south Wales and Queensland are indexed to international coal prices. The other thing, we're seeing a lot of shutdowns across the sector as well On the right side of this chart Tony, we've got renewable energy certificates, wholesale renewable energy certificate prices that we've been watching for a long time. And I'm just trying to draw out here how we've seen prices rise over the last 14 months or so. Um, you know, the gray line year is March last year where you could buy renewable energy certificate for 23 $21 or 2.1 cents per kilowatt hour As we approached cop 26 and we saw a lot more voluntary, um, a lot more voluntary and purchase of certificates. We, we saw the price rise and that increase on renewable energy certificate prices has continued out since. Um, it's prices are very high in the near term and their family demand for renewable energy coming from volunteers just being called out on my cents per kilowatt hour. Thank you very much. You're right. I think it should be allowed to escape. And also, we just got a question from Benny in respect of the slide I put up earlier about which showed that change in the energy mix. And the question is, is the battery is being assumed to be charged from renewable energy in the table. Um, the answer is not exclusively. They will be buying those some of those, some of the business models under those batteries. They're buying energy off the grid and they're storing it. But they're certainly facilitating more and more cheap renewables to come into the market. The more batteries that are out there. So hopefully that helps. So, um, look to get hold of renewable energy. There are a few different pathways and we might start before we get into different contracting styles Tony. Can you step us through how you're working with customers to help them think about the, The total end to end journey towards Net zero and industrial space. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, it really is a journey, um, with our clients and one thing we identified relatively early in the piece is that most of our clients that we're dealing with now did not have a set plan on how to achieve that zero. Which, which has been one of the biggest challenges for businesses across the, across the country. We find that procuring green power or green energy is fantastic. Putting solar on your roof is fantastic. But how does that impact your net zero journey. So the first thing we, the first thing we identified that we had to do was create a baseline, um, measure your emissions measure, um, you know what your usages and from there, once we have that that organized, we then work together with our clients very closely to set a target. Um, you know, one of the, one of the most important pieces is are you looking to be carbon neutral by 2050, 2030, 2025. We set that target together with our clients and then we provide the advice of how to get there step by step, we'll walk out, we'll walk our clients through. The idea is that we need to get to net zero at least cost. Um, you know, there there are solutions that can be quite expensive. However, there are many solutions that are not expensive. You know, the idea is that they're at least cost by the target and then of course we, we work closely with our clients to deliver on on the journey. Okay. Um, and I think a key message there, there's there's a number of options, right? It's not a one size fits all to that end. I thought I'd just be useful to summarize down for people. Some of the various options that are out there for renewable energy contracting, there are probably more than six but there's six pathways that that we think about when we're working with clients to help them lock in renewable energy contracts which suits their business and what suits their business. You know, it's it's going to be a factor of their own sort of internal competence to to handle risk. Their own emphasis and importance on environment are securing environmental outcomes over time as Tony alluded to. It's a journey, we expected live path. Um and and other factors around how to, how to best to contract. But working through it, a P. P. O. A power purchase agreement via a contract for difference is it's a pretty complex way a lot of very large Corporates have done these over the last couple of years tend to be quite bespoke and they put you into a situation where you're contracting with a project and there's all sorts of generation project and there's all sorts of risks that you need to be able to balance and manage their in terms of the project risk and then the C. F. D. The contract for differences, a swap around the electricity price and there's Treasury risks around them as well. So it can be, it can be difficult. Um, solar via Capex or opec's, you can pay capital and get solar on your roof. And there's particularly in victoria, we're seeing business cases down to four years for very large systems at the moment and we're seeing that around the market to as energy prices rise. But there's also Opec's opportunity to write a service contract solar so engaged with somebody to put solar on your lips your roof um, and agreed to by the solar and fixed and known prices, significant contracts we did last year. I saw one of our industrial clients lock in at seven cents per kilowatt hour for delivering energy for the next 10 years. Sorry with CpR and they're probably feeling that at the moment but significantly cheaper power produced on their rooftop managed on someone else's balance sheets and someone else's asset register. Um, and they're getting the benefits of bring your my energy out of that wholesale progressive purchasing. You can go to markets and just purchase the certificates, the large scale generation certificates um, as a separate purchase to your utility contract, there's brokers out there, we can help you with that as well. Green power Tony alluded to it in the last slide. Green Power and I mentioned it earlier as well just to unpack it a little bit. It's a government sponsored program which provides a level of accreditation and there's a, there's a whole lot of audit work that government takes responsibility with between themselves and the energy retailers to ensure that you can um claim and deliver renewable energy purchases into your business through the Green Power program. It tends to be priced quite expensively. That's because it doesn't acknowledge the mandatory renewable procurement which all organizations in Australia buying energy are already making by virtue of the renewable energy certificates targeted, Which is currently about 19%. Um, The the fourth way down the fifth way down there is a renewable energy supply agreement, also called a retailer P. P. A. Where you engage with the retail market and again, we'd love to help you with this part of the process to specify what it is that you need for from an energy contract which will be the certificates. There might be provenance as well so that you can relate your business to a specific generation project as well as the surrender mechanisms that might make more sense for that someone else's problem. We can bundle all that up for you and take that to market and sign you up into a traditional energy supply agreement that has a renewable component built around it And we can do that for 2-5 years and keep you away from a whole lot of ah price and project risks that are, people might deal you into and look the last point carbon neutral supply. There are a bunch of a number of retailers out there who are bundling different types of offset certificates into their energy price depending on the quality and pedigree of those certificates, they can do that at a very low marginal costs, very low additional cost of the cost of the energy um are concerned I suppose is that it's not really addressing the renewable energy challenge. It's um I guess mitigating emissions by linking your energy consumption to another carbon program, which is, as I mentioned, not really addressing the renewable energy challenge for us. Um Tony did you want to unpack power purchase agreements any further, mate? I think I covered most of it. The one thing that I that I would like to add with your power purchase agreements is just when I speak to my clients about them is just be certain that that's the path you want to take. They are very complex. Um There's a lot of time spent with your lawyers. There's a lot of internally can take 18 months to two years to actually set up. Therefore when my clients do approach me and say they would like to um like to approach the power purchasing agreement um method. My first my first question is, are you sure? Um And from there we will then have closely over the over the coming months to get one set up. So Um yeah, it is one of those things that just be 100% certain that that is the path to take because they are extremely complex, extremely expensive and a very long term solution. Mhm. Which patients and a lot of attention to detail risk, risk management building devices. So I leave. Okay, um look, another method that exists is progressive purchasing and specifically in this context we can talk about progressive purchasing for the certificates themselves. Um Tony we we do that for a number of large clients in my opinion, it's it's a good fit where clients got their utility contract in hand, they need to move to um footing to secure the certificates for surrender for their stakeholders. Um and they're aware very conscious that those prices move, trade in the market. Um If you're able to work with somebody you can trust in that space that knows that space well then there are opportunities to take advantage of as the market rises and falls. Absolutely. We um we work with clients um we provide the advice of winter winter purchase um on a progressive purchasing plan. Now, what we, what we advise is purchase when, you know, a progressive purchasing agreement is very handy for them when the market is relatively high. Currently, you know, if you qualify for a progressive purchase Account which is 10 gigawatt hours or more, we generally will say, well generally look into it for you and provide that advice. Now as the market drops um the lower it gets, if it's time to close out a position, then we'll work with that advice. But the most important thing purchasing is that whoever it is that will provide the advice to you, preferably the energy action of course, but whoever it is, you have full faith in them and can trust their decision making and there And their advice. 100%. This diagram here, I guess depicts the ideal. The reality is that market up and down the game is really about trying to understand those markets are expected to pick the moment to do trades and spread your risk over time a single day. Yeah. And another option, we were moving back to the utility contract. I suppose the energy supply agreement is to go to market to the retailers and bundling Green Power. We've got a program, we've been Running reverse auctions for 22 years in this space to generate competitive tensions for our customers and getting great results really driving using, using the power of the market itself to drive down prices for customers. How do you rate that as a, as a way to get hold of Green Tony Yeah. For the majority of our clients, the reverse auction um, is the way to go. Um, just in terms of, in terms of the competitive tension we put in for the retailers, We generally see as you can see there are roughly 20%, 20% difference between first offer and last offer or the successful. Um, and the reason for that is the retailers, uh, sitting there directly competing for your business. Um, And I have a number of clients who actually gather around a boardroom and watch the reverse auction happen live. Uh And then of course adding on green power within the reverse auction is um is starting to become more and more um Yeah it's starting to become more and more prominent as as we move forward and as everyone is looking for green power so Tony look, just as we were winding up. Now let's go, I just wanted to give you the chance to talk about the renewable energy supply agreement. Something we brought to market. It's a it's a retailer. Um You uh a little slide here coming up about some work you did last year. Do you want to tell us a little bit about the retailer? Yeah. Absolutely. So as I mentioned earlier with a traditional P. P. A. Let's call it um they can be extremely complex. They can take a lot of time to set up and they're extremely expensive. So what we identified and what we've been able to work together with retailers is the recent product. Now we first introduced it last year to a a large client of ours Who is a very well known brand. Um and we approached them and said to them what if we told you we could you could be net zero by July of 2022. Um And they looked at us um in amazement. We then explain to them that we can do it cheaper than what they're currently paying for their energy rates. My knew the market was obviously in a fantastic position and and that's the right time to renew your agreements. So with that said they they told me absolutely, let's let's see what you've got. So we presented the product we took it out to to auction, we had eight bidders, Shell energy with the successful bidder in on this occasion um and we ended up saving the client on their energy bills As well as being 100% green. So, you know, first of july, that agreement will kick off and they'll be able to say that right under the rate of product? That's right, thank you. Okay. Yeah, it's a it's a good product and it's a very simple and effective way for consumers or commercial businesses to get renewable energy bundled into the utility contract with all the benefits of provenance, understanding where it's from and control over the marketing opportunity and the okay guys, we might just wrap it up there. There's one question that's come through from Kadeem that I just wanted to address um condoms asked the progressive purchasing services useful says that it's useful to secure renewable energy at the lowest price. Can you elaborate on this? The the key point that we're trying to make that is that the certificates are priced on a market basis, that market price moves around over time if you can track those that market and understand the dynamics behind it, then there are opportunities for you to strike and by certificates, it's about being prepared for not only by flowing, observing the flow of the market, but also being able to make a class decisions, you know, having the mandates and protocols in place in your business to move quickly when prices do move down or conversely to move quickly before prices move up. Well as prices move up. So guys, we've hit time. So I think I have to call it um we did just want to share a couple of tips and tricks with you key point, you know, there are opportunities that the market can support or in your body to purchase now it can be done, it can be done recently quickly. You need to price certificates in. It's not sufficient for a retail taylor to tell you that they only have renewable generation that they trade with. What you need to be able to do is demonstrate the to satisfy the reporting frameworks that you are buying that certificates and rendering them. Um, so to understand that really well, you really need to think through which reporting framework that you want to use and understand the standards for those reporting frameworks again. And last point as Tony has been elaborating for us. There are many options out there for buying any renewable energy but it doesn't need to be difficult and we're here to help thank you very much for your time and your participation guys. I've gotta wrap there but there will be a little package including this deck which will send out to everybody who's attended today and a couple of plans, a couple of tools so that we can provide you with as well. Just to help you make that step towards renewable energy purchasing in your business. Okay, We're happy to stick around for five or 10 minutes guys, if you want to, You may ask us any questions or leave any comments. Um but also we appreciate that time is precious and we've had the 45 minutes that we agree with you. Thank you very much. Great question from Laughlin. Absolutely. We can share the fact sheets from neighbors and the I. R. A best practice docks out with everybody as well and we send the package Kenny. There is also one question in the chat from liam gulliver asking in regards to our platform and reverse auction, do we guarantee a minimum of retailers You want to shoot it? You don't have a crack at that one Tony I can't have a crack at that one. So liam we we don't have a guarantee of the minimum number of retailers that will participate. However, in my experience um for Will participate in 99% of the time which is a single origin shell energy And energy Australia. Um and on average I will have roughly 8-10 retailers um in an auction. Um but we do invite you know, over 20 retailers to every to every auction. Yeah, just to elaborate on that Tony and what do you see as the drivers for higher participation is about credit rating or is it the time of the year or you know, where do you get higher participation? There's a, there's a few factors um credit rating definitely is is one however, I generally find that load profiles um a big a big winner for retailers. They like to see consistency in there in a load. Um just makes it a lot easier. I send margins to give you a competitive price. Um That is something we can work with our clients towards as well um you know, over time we can we can ensure that it does meet what a retailer would like to see. Yeah, one of one of the big drivers. Alright look, the other part of liam's question there does energy actually have carbon and so you can complete the foot printing work lee and our expertise and specialty is around the utility emissions. So we can help you certainly with scope to And some of scope one and we can help you build strategies around mitigating those emissions and we have partners that we work with where there is a significant proportion of scope three emissions that um yes, baseline and and including footprint as well, but we don't do the Their scope three ft printing exercise ourselves. Cool guys, I think that we might draw, draw a line under it there. Thank you very much everyone. Thanks liam, appreciate that. Have a great day. We'll be in touch in the next few days with the package and absolutely. We'll make sure we have the neighbors in IRA. The documents included for you. Thank you and thank you Tony cheers, Julian.